Real Estate Without Renters | Jack Krupey | Jkam Investments

 

There are different opportunities in off-markets and difficult to access through traditional wealth management channels that passive investors should grab. Jkam Investments provides a lending hand to help you in that journey. Today, Jack Krupey, the Founder of Jkam Investments, delves into note investing and explains why it is a great asset class for investors to look at. He also shares his insights on the role of big companies in helping investors in real estate and other alternative investments. Jack also talks about diversifying multiple assets. Get a peek into note investing and how Jack can help you in this investment asset class today. Join us in this insightful episode today.

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Interview With Founder Of Jkam Investments, Jack Krupey

Thanks, as always, for reading and liking the show and giving a nice rating. If you enjoy the show, please share it with a friend or investor where you go. If you go to local media groups, real estate investment clubs, or any investment clubs, quite frankly, because the note business should be a part of everybody’s portfolio. Thanks also for sharing the show.

I do appreciate that and don’t forget, I also rebroadcast these on YouTube if you want to see the full video and have a lot of other social media with my tip of the day. Make sure that you go to those, like those, and subscribe to them as well. I certainly would appreciate that. I’m going to jump right into it. I’m joined by two people

I have got Duane Gibbs and Jack Krupey here. I appreciate you guys being on here. Jack is going to be our featured interview. Duane and myself go back a number of years. I haven’t seen Jack in quite some time, but Jack was around when the market crashed in real estate in the 2008 wave, which created massive opportunities for those who understood distressed real estate and the note business.

In fact, in my opinion, it elevated the industry to where it is now and there was a tremendous opportunity within that. Jack also has a very interesting background, not only in real estate but also on Wall Street. If you go to his website, you’ll see Wealth Without Wall Street and that’s at JKAMInvestments.com. You can check out his website for more about him and the funds that he runs out of that as well. Jack, welcome.

Thank you so much for having me.

I think I hit that pretty accurately about the last crash with the opportunities it created.

It was an amazing time, a little scary. I got into Real Estate a few years before. I had a couple of scars from the crash, but it was probably the best thing that ever happened to me because in November 2008, I got a job in a private equity fund. There were funds in New York that were buying all the nonperforming loans and they needed people with a real estate background.

Wall Street

I’m certainly not a Wall Street guy. I’m a blue-collar kid from New Jersey. I thought I was going to go into technology, but then the dot-com crash happened, and I fell into real estate and did all the wholesaling, fix and flip, and landlording. I lived that in my twenties, then was able to go back into Wall Street and was early in the nonperforming loan space. We were buying nonperforming seconds for $0.03 on the dollar at the end of 2008.

Were you also buying notes one at a time? Is it smaller notes or was it always with bigger firms?

Yes. I worked for that private equity fund for about a year and a half and learned the business from that side. We were selling loans to other note buyers. I saw how great the opportunity was, then I went on my own and bootstrapped it with friends and family. I had $100,000 here and bought a couple of loans, and $50,000 here, bought a couple of loans. I partnered with a small family office in New York. We built up about a $2 million portfolio that we were buying and selling.

We’re buying a couple of loans at a time. We’d buy from the Condor Capitals, trading with other smaller funds. At that point, everything was trickling down. The big guys would buy big portfolios, but then they would sell downstream. Fortunately, I took a meeting in New York one day and I thought it was a couple of guys from Long Island that wanted to buy maybe 5 or 10 loans. It turned out it was a group of ex-Bear Stearns guys that had $150 million and we’re looking to get into the business. We started a partnership with them, and we went from buying a $10 million portfolio to $50 million to eventually $3 billion worth of loans.

It was an amazing ride that I never expected to be involved in. We transacted with Goldman Sachs. We had lines of credit with Nomura and Goldman. We sold mortgage bonds to the character in The Big Short, the character that worked at Deutsche Bank. They changed his name in the movie, but in the book, it’s accurate, Gregg Lippmann. We would buy portfolios of loans and then essentially to refinance them. We would sell bonds. Those guys were even buying our bonds.

It was a pretty amazing ride and a glimpse into how Wall Street works and how we were causing a solution to the financial crisis because a lot of these loans were loans that originated poorly. We were buying, then completing them up and eventually re-securitizing or selling them back to banks. I learned a lot but ultimately realized that I’m not cut out for the Wall Street grind. I was fortunate to move to Puerto Rico and I got bought out of the company in a very tax-efficient way.

Now, I’m still someone active in the note business. I am also active in the real estate syndication space and enjoying life. I love to travel. I’m a big points and miles guy, too. You will see posts on my Instagram. Sometimes, I fly in first class. Usually, it’s on miles. I’m not spending $20,000 to fly first class. It’s usually flying for free. I enjoy life, but I still love networking and doing shows like this. I love going to conferences when I can, meeting up, and giving back to the community.

I think Duane and I probably met you about the time you were doing more of the single-off notes. I think that’s probably when we first met because Duane and I trained together for years and would go around the country teaching people about the note business and get out to some of those national events, but he and I always travel. We missed a lot of those national events. Is that when you met Jack, is that right, Duane?

Jack, didn’t we meet in Vegas the first time when there was an expo? I think that was a Noteworthy Convention.

I think so. It’s definitely in that 2010, ‘11, ‘12 range. Pretty early on in the business. We were fast friends and I was impressed with your culinary expertise. You picked a good restaurant and you know what to order.

There it was good times and everybody was scrambling, but to hear that insight from the big players, you guys were a big player at that level when you were selling bonds and everything else. A lot of people never understood the extent of that, nor does an individual investor need to understand that part of it, buying a single note or a couple of notes here and there. It’s truly fascinating how that debt was packaged, repackaged, and resold.

On the big level, do you still feel that it was the smaller investors that were able to turn the market around or do you think the big players were able to swing at that much? I don’t recall the big players being able to swing it that much because, again, there was that trickle-down effect. At some point time, you had to talk with people to get them to pay again. I bring that up because if we start to see another cycle coming through of nonperforming notes, I want people to be informed that there is a model here that the small investors are absolutely necessary to correct a lot of these ills in the market, if you will

Distressed Asset

I think in the very beginning, a lot of people got cleaned out because the stock market crashed, too. It was a new industry. It’s not that no one was buying loans before the other. There was the seller finance side of it. There was some distress, but it was a new industry. The amount of distress was so much greater than any of the established players. I know Oaktree was a little bit early, but Howard Marks has a great book, Mastering The Market Cycle.

Oaktree was one of the early buyers of nonperforming loans, but even then, the services weren’t set up. There was not a lot of government regulation and guidance, even from the banking regulators, on whether they could modify or not. I think the smaller investors, regardless of whether it was a fund and/or the individuals buying 5 or 10 loans from those funds. The ability to be flexible, the ability to modify somebody that only set 1 pay stub and not 2 because there was so much bureaucracy. We saw good borrowers were getting turned down for no reason.

Real Estate Without Renters | Jack Krupey | Jkam Investments

Jkam Investments: Oaktree was one of the early buyers of non-performing loans.

 

That level of efficiency of being able to come in and do the right thing and make a win-win for the ball certainly helped. Whether it was the small guys versus the big guys, either way, I think it was having entrepreneurial firms own the loans and directing the servicers to be smart and not follow this random checklist and almost sabotage good modifications because of incompetence at some point. I think that helped the market. When I would tell people what I was doing, everyone’s like, “You’re like a Wall Street vulture.” Overall, we helped a ton of people.

Anybody who could afford a mod, we helped. Some people should have never bought a house. There were so many people who had these liar loans, and in those situations, we did our best. We’d offer cash for keys. We try to work something out. Maybe 5% to 10% of the borrowers would dig their heels in and be professional con artists at this point and try to live for free as long as possible. There are always some bad apples, but overall, we helped people and we made money. As a firm across the board, when we were small or when we partnered with a large firm, we actually made more money when we modified loans and then we would sell those loans a few years later than if we foreclosed

It’s like renovating a house. You buy a house that’s broken, you buy a broken note. You fix it up and you’ve enhanced the value of it and it did. I think it’s saved a tremendous amount of people from losing homes and everything else. It’s scary how history repeats itself because more and more, I’m starting to see those same kinds of loans.

They start to creep back in. Nothing down and all these other things you’re like, “Don’t set people up for failure.” Wall Street had a role in that, too, setting people up for failure. We had to come in. You’re right. I remember people scrambling and service companies and not knowing what to do. You’re right. If you bought a note, you serviced it yourself. There wasn’t a service company around that sent the payments to me kind of stuff.

It’s very loose. We were buying back before then even lottery winnings and casino winnings and all kinds of crazy stuff, Jack. I don’t know if you knew that, but there was a big industry in that. Nothing that you could make full time because there was enough lottery winnings to casino winnings to do that, but we dabbled in all those things.

Ultimately, as that whole mess got figured out, I think the regulations that did come in the industry, although they overstepped a little bit. They’ve retreated on some of those. It has been good for the public. Having the servicing companies get involved where you can make it more passive has been good for the note investors. I know one of the things you’re big on, too, is the passive income coming in. I think overall it’s been  good for investors. The recognition of the industry has grown to a point where I mentioned it casually in the beginning, but I’ll say it again: I think notes should be a part of all investors’ portfolios nowadays. What do you think?

It’s definitely a great asset class. There’s still great opportunities. I think you either need to be small. When I say small, it doesn’t mean like a one-man shop, but either small or big. I think some of the people in the middle who couldn’t buy at scale but had a lot of overhead maybe got squeezed because there is a little bit less inventory than there was in the heyday. There’s an absolute place for smaller investors as well.

One of the things when we got large, any loan under $100,000, we would discount it because when you’re when you have millions and millions of dollars with the loans, it costs the same to foreclose $100,000 houses as a $400,000. We would sell those loans cheaper. For entry-level investors, you’re doing a service to Wall Street. It’s a win-win. Those loans trickle down and you can get in on a nice quality house.

Yes, we weren’t competing with you, guys. We needed the bigger companies to feed us to get rid of that smaller stuff and that still happens now, which is great for us. You have people trying to buy homes. Real estate investors are trying to buy homes right now and they’re competing with Black Rock and stuff like that. How do you compete with them? You can’t do it with us. We needed those big companies to buy the bulk and then get rid of what they didn’t want, which was for the scale reasons you mentioned. That was a big part of the model. I don’t see that going away. I think that’s going to continue on.

I think right now, it’s probably the least risky time. When we were buying loans, almost every house was underwater. That debt was double the price. You  needed to hone in on the value of the property and make sure you weren’t. I kept repeating myself. You need to get the value right, and you need to make sure your title shows that there are no back taxes or surprise liens.

You need to get the value right and ensure you know your title and that there are no back taxes or surprised liens. Click To Tweet

In a way, it’s a bit easier now because a lot more properties have equity. We may not be making these 100% annual crazy returns where you buy it, you get it out in six months. However, from an equity perspective, especially if you’re looking for that passive income, modifying, getting lowest performing, you can still make solid, mid-teens, and high-teens, depending on when the loans pay off, but there’s  great returns out there on this paper, especially if the paper that doesn’t fit all the Wall Street boxes. Seller finance, which I know, is something that has been around. There should be regulations around it.

Wall Street generally won’t touch certain finance loans and there are a lot of landlords and or people who help paper to sell a house and they want cash out of it. Those are great niches. There’s a lot of loans out there that don’t check all the Wall Street boxes to secure ties that end up available for small funds and investors to buy. It’s probably the safest time because there’s a lot more equity built into houses and we’re a long way away from the last financial crisis.

Real Estate Without Renters | Jack Krupey | Jkam Investments

Jkam Investments: It’s the safest time because there’s more equity built into houses.

 

We’re in a different spot. I don’t think residential is going to crash. Forty percent of homeowners who don’t have a mortgage, about 30% locked below 4% and there’s still a housing shortage. Other than a few markets, the construction never caught up post-2008. There’s going to continue to be a shortage of housing. I think that’s good for prices to stay stable.

A lot of people in my industry were projecting this big wave of nonperforming and I kept looking and going, “I don’t think so.” You’ve got a lot of equity. It’s a lot different this time around and government programs came back, but you’re right. On the smaller scale that Duane and I are seeing, you’re buying performing notes right off the shelf, basically buying holding a note for 10% to 12% but a lot of the notes I see are $30,000 backed by $120,000 house.

Even if property values drop 10%, 20%, you’re in good shape. For the small investor, I agree with you. I think it’s a great time for them to look at these deals quite differently. The one concern on the banking side with the commercial real estate now, I know you’re more multi-family, but in the office side, that’s got me a little bit concerned there. It looks like 80% of that paper was owned by smaller banks. We all know with office buildings, look at the headlines. The big building selling for a third of what they were purchased for years ago. It’s kind of crazy. Do you have any insight on that side of the industry?

Absolutely. That’s actually good for investors that the majority of commercial loans were portfolio loans owned by the small regional banks. Residential, even if it said Wells Fargo, most of the time, it was Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac. Most of the loans were institutionally-owned and so by nature, it had to kind of trickle down from the top. The fact that these commercial loans are very dispersed. It’s an inefficient market. There are a lot of opportunities, whether you’re tracking down the owner who’s distressed and going to the bank or working the banks looking for opportunities.

There’s going to be a ton of write-downs for office. At least there’s a lot more guidance from 2008 on how the banks can treat them and what their liquidity ratios are. There’s a playbook on whether or not the bank can take a loss or modify it? The fact is a lot of these are going to need to get written down. Some offices may be able to be turned into apartments if it makes sense.

You think that conversion is going to affect the housing and the multi-family for sure, right?

There’s still a shortage. Maybe there’s a well-located office park that can be downsized or you’ve got to build an apartment building and make it some type of mixed-use thing. People are going to have to get creative, but the large Class A offices are the ones in the deepest trouble because if those were bought at 4.5% percent cap rate, then they were 95% occupied five years ago.

I don’t know where the prevailing cap rate is on the office now. It might be 8% or 10%. I don’t know where it lands and most of these buildings are maybe 50%, 60% occupied or the amount of rent they’re going to collect is significantly less because the companies have the bargaining power here. I don’t think offices are completely going away. I know some of my colleagues in New York are back. Some are back to 5 days a week, and some 3 days a week.

It’s not completely going away but the level of space is going to be less. Maybe you need 20% to 30% less office space than you might have needed before COVID. There’s going to be some amazing opportunities to buy. I’m not actively looking for an office, but at the right cap rate and cash on cash return, there are no bad deals. There are just bad prices.

There are no bad deals, just bad prices. Click To Tweet

After the crash, you saw an opportunity to diversify and that’s one of your funds is all about, diversification for a passive investor. I know you work with accredited investors in your funds, but you are pretty well diversified because you’re lending money. You’re also buying equity and property to turn around and sell the properties. You do a little bit of everything in the diversified fund. Is that right?

Diversified Fund

Yes. I  try to build it around my own personal portfolio. I was fortunate to have a liquidity event. I had a fair amount of capital that I needed to actively deploy. When I was on Wall Street, we couldn’t take outside money. We had pension funds. It was like $10 million minimum. I had a lot of my friends and people we sold loans to. People we sold notes to. A lot of people were interested in investing and I could never take their money because it was all corporate. It was exciting to launch a fund to be able to have investors invest alongside us. When I was in the note business, I’m still in the business, but it was always no tenants, no toilets.

I’ve also added no tourists because I know so many people who want to buy a single-family house and turn it into an Airbnb. For me, I wanted to be at scale. I love the multifamily, the 100-plus unit apartment complexes. At 100-plus units, you’re doing it at the institutional level and it can be a truly passive investment. You have on-site management. It’s like owning a business.

One of our newest asset classes is we’re buying marinas that have an RV park component. Very similar to mobile home parks and storage. These are mom-and-pop owned types of businesses that can be run a little bit more efficiently if bought with more of a private equity fund and a corporate model. If you buy enough of them, you could scale them up. You can sell to private equity at a much lower rate of return. I stick to diversifying in multiple assets. We buy some loans. We’ll look at lower portfolios.

I love the cashflow of the upside. One of the reasons I dove a little bit more into this specification is there are some pretty significant tax benefits for taking losses on paper. I know a lot of known investors are also landlords. I think the two go hand in hand in managing your income tax and trying to plan and be the most efficient. You’re paying the minimal amount of tax that you are legally required to pay. If you structure it right, you can even pay zero tax or carry forward loss.

Obviously, your move to Puerto Rico probably had something to do with that as well with the tax and setups that they had there. I have a few friends who have moved down as a result of that, but it is something you have to look at from an investment standpoint as well. In addition to your diversified fund, though, you also have a fund that people can kind of pick and choose what they invest in.

It’s a great concept. It functions more like a crowdfunding platform, but it’s still technically one Reg D fund and we have each individual opportunity and everything is segmented per deal. Right now, we have a marina opportunity. We have a multifamily value opportunity and we have a hard money lending fund. It’s not the traditional single-family house flip, hard money lending fund. It’s a special situation fund. They’re charging interest rates at 20%.

What we’re finding is if you’re flipping a single-family house and it’s a very cookie-cutter deal, you can still get 12% money, maybe 14%, depending on the deal. If it doesn’t check every one of those boxes and you can’t go to the traditional banks or lenders, the only thing out there is a sophisticated lender that can look at it and make a quick decision. People will pay for that for a short-term loan for 3 or 6 months, especially if they have the opportunity to buy something at a deep discount and potentially make millions of dollars flipping a property. It’s a great option for passive investors. It’s the first position and pays out double-digit returns to investors, possibly.

There’s always money out there. There’s the cost of it. What you put together, you look at business proposals and all kinds of steep things that people would have to put together obviously to weigh out what that’s worth. With that lender mentality, you’re always thinking, “If we got take it back, we’re good,” right?

Absolutely. As with you guys, one of my missions is to get more people into alternative investments. Whether it’s performing or nonperforming loans, whether it’s the syndication space. Up until 2012, it was difficult. They were country club deals. With the law changes with the 506 (c) and the ability to advertise, I think not enough accredited investors have enough money outside the traditional stocks, bonds, and traditional financial system where there are so many layers of fees and so many people getting paid and there’s better out there than trying to do that.

Real Estate Without Renters | Jack Krupey | Jkam Investments

Jkam Investments: We need to get more people into alternative investments.

 

Vanguard earns 8% on average when you can still have a 20% drawdown. In 2022, market was down 20%-plus. It was up 20%-something in 2023. On a two-year basis, people might have grown by two percent. They had their marketing both years. Get excited about your 23% last year, but don’t forget you basically made nothing for the last two years. There are plenty of alternative investments. You could have been spit off 10% to 12% both of those years and you’re significantly better off than if you had your money in the market.

I agree and I switched gears, as did Duane years ago. One thing I recognize at the level that I work at, which is the individual investor, is they need someone with the experience to walk them through the deals and one-on-one and that’s what I’ve been doing. All of my clients can schedule Zooms with me. We get on and we go through documents.

We get into the details there. I think that’s a big part of what you’re saying, which is most people don’t know about this business and when they hear about it, it’s unfortunate. Some people dive right in and find out it’s not investing in real estate completely. There’s a different side to it. Is it papered up as you indicated earlier? It was written up the right way. What are the true values of things? All that stuff comes into play.

What I’ve been able to do is utilize my experience to go through and walk people step by step through this. I think that’s what’s going to get more people involved in this business. Duane’s obviously helping me out with that. He’s come on board as well because it hasn’t existed in the industry before. That’s something that’s got to be a game-changer.

I guarantee a lot of people, because it’s happened in the past, that will learn at that level will be the next people like you, Jack, that get into funds and everything else with the cautionary tale you hinted at it. For some of these smaller funds, you have to be pretty careful of what you’re thinking of. Getting $5 million, $10 million in a fund can be tough to manage because you’re not big enough to play with the big boys, but you’re too big for the individual stuff. It can run into a little bit of a management issue. You were never stuck in that range, but you have familiarity with it.

Cash drag is one of the biggest issues. If you take all the money upfront and you can’t deploy it, then you’re either forced to do bad deals or your returns are terrible. I definitely warn investors, “Don’t take on too much money. If you have a fun that has multiple closes or you can have a capital call list and take money in as you go, it’s always easier to raise for an individual opportunity as well.”

Our diversified fund is technically a blind pool of funds. At least when it starts, there’s nothing in it. Now, we’ve got ten assets in it, so we can show our current portfolio and it’s a little easier to raise. We basically do a new fund every year to year and a half. We’re starting to go over. Even with that fund, when we have a new deal, I still talk to investors about the deal and say, “Now is the time to come into our fund because we’ve got this great opportunity.”

I think slow and steady wins the race, but the key is you have to start taking action. The only way you will ever get to a $10 million fund is to do a couple of deals yourself, maybe in small partnerships. When I raised my first $2 million, I was coming out of 2008 and lost a good chunk of money. I was licking my wounds a bit.

Slow and steady wins the race, but the key is to start taking action. Click To Tweet

I’d worked in a fund, but it wasn’t like I was making millions of dollars working at a fund for somebody else. I tracked the deals I did, and I also had a few clients that I was bird-dogging. I found them loans and helped them with them. I was able to use that as a track record. When I raised the first $2 million, I showed a track record.

I was like, “These are deals I personally have money in. These are deals I managed for another investor with their money,” and that was enough. The investor didn’t care. He wanted to know the numbers good enough. He understood that I was coming in with mostly sweat equity. Getting involved, learning, and tracking real deals, that’s the best way to build up your track record if you’re starting from zero.

The community like yours, too, the others, a level of vetting rather than going to some REIT club. Usually, there are a couple of good, successful people and there are a lot of wannabes and yahoos in some of the real estate clubs. When you’re joining an actual community that’s cultivated, that’s been a big help for me. I’ve been in a number of masterminds over the years. In 2022, we were paying almost six figures between all the Mastermind groups I was a part of.

Duane, you had some questions.

I was getting ready to say I had an investor meeting with some friends who live down in Charlotte. In their portfolio, they manage about 1,900 doors and we were sitting there talking and they said, “I want to start learning the note business, but I need to scale way back because I don’t want to go out and create a fund. I don’t have experience in putting all this money and doing it. I need to be able to diversify because they’re having a problem finding inventory.” It’s creating a problem for the money that they do have sitting there. I 100% agree with you on what all that looks like for these investors who have to change what they’re doing in the market.

Future wise, again, as you said, you don’t see a big crash or even a crash at all on the residential side, equity being the savior on that. I’ll tell you we’ve seen consistent inventory levels, which I’ve never seen previous to the crash, so that’s been nice. It’s been it’s been a good and steady. You’re right. I think the funnel that’s been opened up are these smaller real estate companies that go out, buy real estate and sell it with financing.

They’re creating notes on that in the Mom and Pop notes. Those inventory funnels have accelerated, and the bank inventory that we dealt with back in the last crash has been turned way down. We’re making adjustments. I know that in your business and your funds, that’s something that you have to look at all the time, too. What’s going on in the market? Where are the opportunities?

Right now, there are also a lot more commercial opportunities. You mentioned community banks with commercial, but also those non-bank hard money lenders. There are a lot of maturity defaults on hard money loans. There are hard money loans that the sponsor couldn’t execute on their business plan. There are opportunities there now. Those are obviously a little bit more hands-on than buying a performing loan. For those who are looking for those home-run returns, those are the scenarios where a bank is going to be more motivated.

In your experience, those lenders don’t want the property back? They could, but they don’t want to bet they’d rather sell the problem, right?

Yes, especially a half-finished renovation project. I thought a lot of known investors also have a real estate construction house flipping background. Some are more the engineer account types, but for those interested in note investing that have that construction background, that’s a golden opportunity right there. I think that’s as lucrative as the early days of the financial crisis if you can find the right opportunities where you’re backing into a solid property that didn’t execute the business properly.

I thought too much about the hard money, but that’s an interesting angle to it. I’m definitely going to research a little bit more into that. Duane, do you have any other questions? I know we’re keeping Jack long here.

I think it’s a good insight into what he’s seen in the past and where he’s at now. Reflecting back on how it was a stepping stone for you to be able to go off in some different areas from your education from the past of being smaller and years into this, not jumping into it overnight, it took some time and  understanding the market.

I never set out to grow that big. It just happened. Get in and take action in a smart way.

Surround yourself with the right people, too.

Doing a couple of deals could lead to a bigger deal, such as doing 10 or 20 deals and brokering some loans. Bird dogging some loans led to a few million dollars, but that wouldn’t have happened without jumping in by in the first one. Even my first job in private equity wouldn’t have happened if I hadn’t jumped into real estate in my early twenties. I was out of college doing the low money down. I read a Robert G. Allen book, No Money Down Real Estate. I called my college landlord. Back in 2001, 2002, if you could fog a mirror, you could get a mortgage. I had a couple of loans pretty quickly and got into the business. Having good mentors and good communities is a big help towards being successful, for sure.

We’ve been talking with Jack Krupey. You can find out more about him, his company, his funds, and all of that at JKAMInvestments.com. Is that the best place there’s any anyplace else that people?

Yes, and we have an eBook about the distressed market cycle. I encourage everyone to download it. It’s a free eBook if you go to the website JKAMInvestments.com. We’re all so on all major social media. If you’re a Facebook or Instagram user, YouTube, we have all of those under JKAMInvestments. On my personal page, I still post a lot of business stuff as well. Find me and friend me on any of the platforms of your choice.

I thought I saw you have a podcast as well.

Yes, it’s called Alternative Investor Mastermind. I would love to have you guys on and chat more about you and your business. Expose you to our audience.

Sure. Fantastic. Thanks again for reading the show. Duane, thanks for being on with us as well, and Jack, it’s been a pleasure. Good to see you again. It’s been a long time.

Real pleasure. Thanks a lot, guys.

 

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